Wednesday, August 25, 2010
Podcast News, Dante's Trials, and Nier's Fishing
Podcast: The last GameCritics podcast recorded live was ridiculously epic in length. With three meaty topics to cover, we just couldn't fit it all in one show. The answer? Cut the damn thing in half. The first segment of the most recent episode is now available on the iTunes and Zune marketplaces, and will also be available for download at GameCritics itself (most likely) tomorrow.
In the meantime, my good friend, witty snarker and all-around brilliant dude Matthew Kaplan did me the great honor of choosing me as the first guest for his podcast, Game In Mind. It's a one-on-one piece that will probably tell you more about me than you ever wanted to know.
In addition, I explain how I came up with the Coffeecola name and chat about some of my more controversial reviews. If you've got time and the interest, check it out HERE. If you like what you hear and you're also on Twitter, you can give Matt a follow at @MattGKaplan. He will entertain you, I guarantee.
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Games: I polished off Dante’s Inferno a couple of days ago, and liked it so much that I went back and completed the Gates of Hell survival mode, and I never do that kind of stuff. In fact, I was almost tempted to play through it again in order to max out the Evil side of the skills tree, but common sense got the better of me and I figured that my time should probably go towards something else in my to-play pile.
I dashed out a review last night that will go up sometime in the near future, but I have to say that in a rather unusual turn of events, I think my piece will be much more positive than the norm. You can certainly read it for yourself and let me know what you think, but one thing I find quite puzzling is that I've heard from tons of people that the game ran out of imagination, or took a nosedive at the end. I didn't really feel that way, and when asked for specifics, it's usually the series of arena trials that they point to.
I can understand not liking them since they do stick out from the rest of the levels (and trying to stay airborne for 8 seconds is complete garbage) but to be perfectly frank, I whipped through those so quickly that the segment seemed like a complete non-event compared to how much people were trash-talking it. I'm not trying to say that I'm some kind of super player with better-than-you skills at all, it was just that the entire piece was something like ten minutes long. When compared to the five hours and fifty minutes of pretty damned entertaining gameplay, the reaction to that brief part seems a little overblown to me.
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Games: Speaking of overblown reactions (how’s THAT segue?) I started playing Nier yesterday. Although it was the victim of a pretty intense word-of-mouth smear campaign thanks to the infamous fishing segment, nearly every intelligent person that I respect had nothing but good things to say about it. After seeing this consensus, I felt compelled to bump it up to the top of my playlist, and I'm really glad that I did. I'm only about six hours in, but so far it's been a very measured, mature and intriguing game that's a massive step up compared to the kind of work that developer Cavia has previously turned out.
So, about that fishing.
If you were anywhere near the IntArwebz when Nier was released, it was impossible to avoid hearing about how stupidly terrible, atrociously bad, and game-ruining the fishing segment was. I seem to recall at least two reviews where the writer claims to have stopped playing thanks to that particular bit, and there was even a video review making the rounds where the person on camera was having an emotional meltdown while showing the viewer ‘evidence’ of what a nightmare the fishing was.
At this point, I'd like to call bullshit on all of that.
Look, the fact is that the fishing minigame comes off as broken. I certainly admit that. It's not fun and it could use a little tweaking in terms of playability. If nothing else, the developers absolutely should have explained how the mechanics work in much greater detail than they do. However, all that said, the game only requires a player to fish once. Once that's done, it never needs to be revisited.
Reading over some of the complaints again, it seems as though a big problem is that most of the people trying to get through this segment are fishing in the wrong place. If a player has a map of the area (which I bought immediately upon entering the town) then the game displays A BIG GODDAMN RED X where you're supposed to go fishing.
Furthermore, if the player has set the difficulty level to Easy, the game GIVES YOU THE FISH after failing the attempt three or four times. It literally gives you the fish. I got through this section in about four or five minutes --total-- and once that was done, I never looked back.
I absolutely understand that this particular minigame was not as polished as it could've been, but no reviewer with a shred of professionalism or self respect should have overreacted to such a wild degree and dismissed the game as a whole because of it. At worst, a few minutes at GameFAQs could have resolved the issue and then those covering the game would have seen how much more Nier has to offer. If you ask me, this is easily one of the best games I've played this year, and I find it shameful the way it was treated. With all the complaints of inspiration-free sequels and formulaic cash-ins, why were people so quick to give something bucking the trend such a cold shoulder?
If you're the kind of open-minded player who's interested in games that defy convention, offer genre-bending experiences, and explore alternatives in characterization and narrative, you owe it to yourself to at least try Nier. There's really nothing else quite like it.
... Just promise me that you’ll get past the fishing before passing judgment on it.
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Oh man, my girlfriend actually LIKES the fishing in Nier. Okay, maybe "likes" is a bit strong, but she felt compelled to do all the fishing sidequests and said it wasn't that bad once you get good bait and upgrade a little.
You also don't have to be on easy for it to give you the fish. I believe it takes more strike-outs on normal, but it'll do the same provided you're at the right spot.
On the other hand, GameFAQs is a privilege, not a right. Reviewers often have to write a review prior to release so they don't have that luxury. And not everyone has internet. Most do, but not all. Others like me consider it cheating and stubbornly refuse to look stuff up with rare exceptions. So I can understand the hate behind the misdirection. I've certainly been held up for stupider things myself.
Also, that infamous Nier video was made by friend of BRP, Justin McElroy. He was on our cast once talking about review scores of all things. In his defense, I can understand his frustration (he probably had no FAQ) and after lots of criticism for that video he did try going back to the game. He didn't like it for other reasons (one of which being that he couldn't tell how much damage he was doing to the boar, though you can enable enemy health bars in the options menu. Sigh) like that room in the sand temple where you can't run, but at least he gave it a fare shake. I could understand these criticisms, but none of these things held me up for more than a few min in my playthrough. Maybe I just got lucky. Or maybe Nier fucking rocks.
I don't agree about the fishing. If you want to quit because of that, fine; the devs (or the localization team) didn't do their job. The existence of an FAQ is never an excuse for bad instructions in game. I can only imagine the apoplectic fit you would have if a game came out that had been intentionally designed to give you bad information so that you could only progress if you owned a strategy guide. The in-game instructions about how and where to fish are useless, and if you start fishing in the wrong place using the wrong technique what happens is that you lose every fish as soon as it's hooked, so you can't even figure out what you're doing wrong.
You mention the map, but the problem with that is, why would you look at the map? What about the fishing minigame suggests that the map would provide valuable information? The man says, fish from the beach. Conveniently, the beach is right next to him. Sure, there's another beach, but it belongs to the same ocean so why would you suspect they are different?
The fishing minigame is pretty bad, it's explained in a way that is pretty likely to make the player fail at it repeatedly, and it stands as a completely nonsensical roadblock to further enjoying the game. Given that the game up to that point is basically a breeze, that could easily be frustrating enough to kick the disc. You came into this with two advantages: the availability of FAQs and the foreknowledge that this part might be trouble. You can't discount the importance of the latter (although second-wave players often do), because it allows you to deal with the fishing as "oh, it's that tough spot I read about" instead of "why is this not working OMGWTFBBQ!11!1!"
Jeff and Sparky> I’ll just respond to the both of you guys at the same time, for expediency's sake…. I’ve got three minutes before I need to get out the door here. ^_^
>>>On the other hand, GameFAQs is a privilege, not a right. Reviewers often have to write a review prior to release so they don't have that luxury. And not everyone has internet. Most do, but not all. Others like me consider it cheating and stubbornly refuse to look stuff up with rare exceptions. So I can understand the hate behind the misdirection. I've certainly been held up for stupider things myself.
I can certainly relate about not having constant access to GameFAQs or message boards for help. I had a similar situation myself in Etrian Odyssey III where I was stuck to the point that I was actually thinking the game had some kind of programming error. Luckily, a quick e-mail to the publisher resolved the issue and all was well.
That said, if the choice is between asking for help and dinging the game in the review (unless there's absolutely no help to be found, which I see as a bit of a rare circumstance) or completely writing the game off and then publicly castigating it, I think a serious review or would probably choose the former.
>>>Also, that infamous Nier video was made by friend of BRP, Justin McElroy. He was on our cast once talking about review scores of all things. In his defense, I can understand his frustration (he probably had no FAQ) and after lots of criticism for that video he did try going back to the game. He didn't like it for other reasons (one of which being that he couldn't tell how much damage he was doing to the boar, though you can enable enemy health bars in the options menu. Sigh) like that room in the sand temple where you can't run, but at least he gave it a fare shake. I could understand these criticisms, but none of these things held me up for more than a few min in my playthrough. Maybe I just got lucky. Or maybe Nier fucking rocks.
The point I would raise here is that (IIRC) the game auto-enables the minimap unless the player turns it off the menus. If McElroy had left that function enabled (and really, why would you turn it off?) He would have at least seem that he was in the wrong place whether he had purchased the map or not. Like you mentioned earlier, the game awards the fish to the player (not only on Easy, apparently) so long as he had been in the right place, the entire “ordeal” would have been over in three or four minutes.
As a reviewer, there have been a million times but I've been frustrated to the point of anger over something in a game, but it's pretty rare that I will completely discount an entire game over something that (in fairness) is an extremely short, one-time segment.
>>>The in-game instructions about how and where to fish are useless, and if you start fishing in the wrong place using the wrong technique what happens is that you lose every fish as soon as it's hooked, so you can't even figure out what you're doing wrong.
I totally agree with this. The instructions are terrible and the mechanics are equally bad. I'm in no way trying to excuse the fishing minigame, as I found it pretty wretched myself.
>>>You mention the map, but the problem with that is, why would you look at the map? What about the fishing minigame suggests that the map would provide valuable information? The man says, fish from the beach. Conveniently, the beach is right next to him. Sure, there's another beach, but it belongs to the same ocean so why would you suspect they are different?
Well, like I said above, unless the player turns the mini map off in the options, I’m 99.9% sure that the default is for the mini map to be in the corner, and that giant red X I mentioned should be a pretty good indicator that the player is in the wrong area. I'm not able to check in-game right now so pardon me if I miss remembering, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is.
>>>The fishing minigame is pretty bad, it's explained in a way that is pretty likely to make the player fail at it repeatedly, and it stands as a completely nonsensical roadblock to further enjoying the game. Given that the game up to that point is basically a breeze, that could easily be frustrating enough to kick the disc. You came into this with two advantages: the availability of FAQs and the foreknowledge that this part might be trouble. You can't discount the importance of the latter (although second-wave players often do), because it allows you to deal with the fishing as "oh, it's that tough spot I read about" instead of "why is this not working OMGWTFBBQ!11!1!"
That's very true and I concede the point, but I would counter by saying that in the normal course of playing the game, I quickly learned to use the map to orient myself, and as an extension, I learned to always buy the maps. I also learned that for every important quest, the game usually try to give me into what I needed to do. Even if I had never heard of the fishing issue beforehand, the natural course of events (for me, by keeping most of the game defaults on and following the natural style that the games seem to suggest) would have led me to the correct spot on the beach and awarded me the fish after a few failures, which is exactly what happened.
I can understand that experience will not be the same for everyone, but the general reaction seemed so out of proportion and so overblown that it felt as though I needed to say something. Nier has been such an overwhelmingly positive experience so far that this entire fishing issue has completely drowned out everything that it does right, and that didn't seem in any way appropriate.
I have a deep love for you, Brad.
One question, though, that has begged an answer for many moons:
Where do you find the time to complete so many games?!
I am astounded, jealous, and envious.
Holy cow, please forgive all of the typos and misspellings. YIKES.
That's what I get for trying to type out a sizable response in a rush...
Brandon> I watch only 0/1 hours of TV per day. Frees up a lot of game time. = )
I actually did turn the minimap off (ironically, right before I went into Seafront) because I thought it was unhelpful and intrusive. I acknowledge that if I'd had it on I would have seen the X in a different place, but again, I might not have bothered to look at the minimap since the instructions seemed to so obviously point towards the beach that's immediately adjacent. That's on the localization team, not the devs, though. Would it have been so hard to have the guy tell you to go fish in the cove on the other side of the lighthouse?
And, to be clear, I think quitting Nier because of the fishing is a bad idea because you'll miss some amazing stuff. I just think it's understandable to ragequit there after you catch your third extremely active bucket.
Glad to hear some love for Nier, though I must admit I have no idea what the fuss is about over the fishing. After all, it's the cultivation that's far more challenging.
(on a side note, Brad, did you just admit to playing this game on Easy? I beat it 100% on default/normal without even dying. It's not hard in the least.)
In the interest of full disclosure, I did write the official strategy guide for Nier and, for me, doing all of the side quests, particularly the fishing ones, was one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. The very first time I played it, I grabbed the rod and immediately set to fishing right next to the dock with the old man like so many others naturally do. I soon realized my problem and switched to the beach by the lighthouse and solved my problem.
The fishing system was very much a paper-rock-scissors type of game. Which bait do you use to catch which fish and where, then use that fish to catch to catch bigger fish (usually) and so on and so forth. I especially enjoyed that not all freshwater locations had the same fish and not all saltwater spots did either.
The trickiest thing in the entire game is collecting the 10 pink moonflower seeds for one of the quests. Chances are if you don't use a guide you're not going go figure it out.
Then again, those of you who blast through games just to check them off a list probably won't spend a minute doing the more enjoyable parts of the game anyway.
I think the cultivation was less of a problem because it was completely optional (with the exception of the pink moonflower sidequest). Given how slowly the farming goes, though, I can imagine that there would have been an even bigger stink over that if the developers had made it a requirement. As is, I think the pink moonflower quest is pretty poor, because there is almost no way a player can solve it without using an external guide.